Category Archives: Gospel

In Business As It Is In Heaven

When Jesus prayed “in earth as it is in heaven” did He mean that for business too? I think he did.

Recently, I heard a teaching from Bethel Pastor Bill Johnson on the Christian business website, https://heaveninbusiness.com/. He spoke on the basics of Christian principles in business and suggested that Christians have a critical role to play in the business world. Johnson said that Christians in the work world have a responsibility to show others what the Kingdom of God is supposed to look like. In other words, bring heaven down to earth by how we live and share God’s love. 

When Christians walk into work, we have a much bigger mission than just what is written on the wall. Sure, we need to turn a profit. Even more importantly, we need to leave a positive impact. We need to be the first to apologize and own up or what we have done wrong. We should model out servant leadership. Honestly, is there any other kind of leadership that truly works?

Bill Johnson stated, “You should make people at work thirsty for God.” You don’t have to preach. But you do have to live it out and extend invitations to a bigger mission.  One thing that Bill Johnson said he likes to do is adopt local businesses and just see how he can develop a relationship with the owner and bless the business. He will frequent the establishment and really pray for it. What would happen in the business world if more Christians followed this example? Before we have an encounter at work, we stop and turn our affection to God not that huge work problem. We become aware and conscious of the Spirit of God coming upon us.

Johnson explained, “The Holy Spirit lives in me for my sake, but He comes upon me for the benefit of others to impact the world around me.”

If we are going to bring heaven down to earth, then we better know a bit about heaven. What does it look like when the Kingdom of Heaven invades earth? I think it looks a lot like Matthew 5-7. God turns our value system up side down and makes us truly right side up. A Christian business shines and stands out not by its preaching, but by the freedom and the hope it brings to others. Christians in the work world should be diligent workers and peacemakers – the kind of people you want to have around because they focus on positive things and speaks words of life to teammates.

Pastor Bill Johnson told a story about a major word a group at Bethel received after a time of prayer. He summarized the spiritual truth, “The person with the most hope will have the most influence.” Wow, that hit me like a 2×4. Have I let fear and focus on what is wrong cloud my vision to what could be right? Do I bring hope to my workplace and other relationships?

Johnson said that if we let the size of our problem dominate our thinking we will never realize the miracle that could await. This leads us to focus on the details and not the big picture. It mires us down in all the problems. God wants to raise up business people for His glory to impact the world for good. And the business world is the last great unreached mission field in America. Many of us have been afraid to let the light shine because we didn’t want to make others uncomfortable. But there are ways to bring divine principles to bear in a way that can even bless a secular work environment. A city on a hall is a place that stands out in the dark as Johnson explained. It is a refuge and a comfort for those who are lost.

As the salt of the world, the Church needs to bring flavor to the community. And flavor is influence. Johnson declared that Christians have a duty and responsibility to bless our community including the local businesses with God’s hope, love and generosity.

So, what does this look like for me to live out Matthew 5-7 in the work world? I am struggling every day. Hopefully, each new day I am a bit better than the last day. Johnson talked about how the shadow of the apostles was able to heal people. He asked, “What is released in our shadow?” He then explained, “Your shadow will always release what overshadows you.”

This means if you are full of anger, bitterness, fear or resentment, that will come out. You can’t hide it. If you are full of God’s love, hope and faith, that will overflow and bless others. Those things follow us and leave a positive or negative wake behind us.

So, what’s coming out of your shadow?

 

 

 

Now That Changes Everything

Everyone wants the good life. But what if the good life isn’t good enough? What if God’s best is different than our ideal dreams?

I wrestled with this today while listening to Pastor Charlie Hill’s message at Steamboat Christian Center. What if it isn’t that our desires are too strong, but they are directed toward the wrong things? What if our desires are trully too weak?

I am reminded of this famous quote by author and theologian, C.S. Lewis. He wrote in the Weight of Glory, “It would seem that Our Lord finds our desires not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.”

The forces of darkness want us to run after things that are a lot like Chinese food. These things may taste good in the moment, but they leave us feeling hungry in less than 30 minutes.

I live in a vacation paradise. It is beautiful in Steamboat. But this town also has a dark secret. This county has fairly high suicide rate. I first discovered this reality when I moved to town and talked with a friend who works with the local hospital. He is called in to help counsel and minister to those who are suspected of trying to commit suicide. He told me that he gets more calls than you would imagine.

People come to the Boat expecting this vacation mecca to solve their problems. But funny thing, after a while the world-class skiing, biking and fishing doesn’t seem to satisfy. Many people have pinned their hopes on the  wrong things. Sure, those activities are fun and fulfilling. But I believe that God designed us all to have deep connections both with Him and with others.

Pastor Charlie preached on John 14:6 where Jesus made a pretty radical statement. He said, “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” This seems like a pretty exclusive statement. What about those who have not known or believed in Jesus? And what do you have to believe to realize this blessing? Is this just a creed you must believe? Or is it an invitation to something more?

Back during Jesus’ earthly ministry, many people wanted to know the way to eternal life. This was a question sometimes asked of rabbis and teachers. Jesus made it clear that other paths lacked something critical — a personal relationship with God through Jesus. This statement wasn’t about keeping people out. Its purpose is to clarify what works. It is found in a passage where Jesus is going to add rooms onto His house so that more people can stay there with Him forever. This is an invitation to deep intimacy. The kind of love that says, “Come move in forever.” Now that is love.

Jesus was making it clear that lives apart from God will never be enough. There will always be emptiness and brokenness. The good life we seek is not found in stuff, other people or experiences apart from God. It can only be found in a deep relationship with God where He makes all those things more enjoyable. You can’t truly have forever fun until you find your for real freedom.

This news Jesus spoke may seem exclusive. But it is open to all. It may only seem restrictive if you rebuff his invitation. Jesus said, “Come to me, and I will give you rest.”

If you want peace and purpose, there is no better place than the arms of Jesus. Please go to a Christian friend or a godly church in your area and chat with a minister or member who can help you. If you have tried everything else, why not try Jesus? You may just discover like I did that He truly changes everything.

No One Else Is Coming

That sure sounds like an awkward theme for a Christian conference. But that was the theme for the 2019 Vous Conference in Miami. This theme hit on a key point that strangles today’s churches and Christians. Frequently, we look around waiting for some charismatic leader, innovative ministry or new move of God before we act.

But Jesus left His earthly ministry thousands of years ago. And Christ sent us forth to carry forward the Gospel. So, what are we doing standing around with our hands in our pockets?

Each person in the body of Christ has something to offer. We can’t stand around and say we don’t have what we need. Jesus said, “All authority in heaven and hearth has been given to me, so therefore go and make disciples of all nations.” Sure, this command was directed to the disciples. But it equally applies to Christians today.

Christians have the call, the example, the resurrecting power of Christ, the anointing of the Holy Spirit. What else are we waiting for? Nobody else is coming.

Vous pastor, Rich Wilkerson Jr., challenged the conference attendees. He said, “Reaching the world for Jesus depends on the Church. Everyone and everything we need to change the world is in this room. We shouldn’t look around waiting for somebody else? We have a responsibility to carry forth the Gospel. If not you, then who?”

We all know people who need to know Jesus. So, why don’t we just make an introduction? We don’t have to cram religion down somebody’s throat. All we need to do is tell our story. We need them to know that Jesus is for them, no matter what they have done. Repentance is sweet, and it is the key to unlocking freedom from our past.

Rich said, “The Church of Jesus is the most powerful force on the planet.” Jesus declared  that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against the Church. Gates are defensive measures. Basically, Jesus was saying, “Not even hell is protected from the Church.”

The key point that Rich made in his opening talk was the importance of unity. He admitted,  “The devil doesn’t fear a big church; he fears a united Church.” Unity is crucial for the Church to fulfill its mission. Rich added, “If you don’t have unity, you can’t have community.”

The key Scripture that Rich used was Jesus’ prayer as He approached the cross.

John 17:20-23

20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

Jesus stressed unity that leads to intimacy. It centers on love and directs people to God. More than just unity, Jesus was calling for oneness — when people are unified around the thoughts and plans of God.

Rich talked about the four things that get in our way:

1.) Comparison

Rich said, “It is really hard to carry out your calling if you are focusing on what others are doing around you.” You must be who God has designed and called you to be. Comparison is a trap that robs us of our potential. And in this social media driven culture, comparison is like a plague.

 

2.) Competition in Ministries

Many of those you are competing against don’t really care about competing against you. People want to do big things for God. But sometimes our call is smaller than we wish. As Rich said, “You will never get big if you refuse to be dedicated to the small.”

Rich stressed, “Authenticity comes from identity – what God has put inside of you that attracts others.”

The big problem is that competition causes jealous, which brings division. We need to get to a point where we say, “Your win in ministry is my win…Collaboration is multiplication.”

Rich said, “I am super competitive. You just have to know who your real competitor is.”

 

3.) Critical Spirit

Sure, we need to be discerning. We don’t need to approve of everything that another preacher or ministry does. My motto has been, “Eat the meat and spit out the bones.” I try to look for what I can learn from others, even from those who may a bit off in places.

I also know that other ministries are not accountable to me. There is one Lord, and He will judge each believer for our actions. As the Apostle Paul asked, “Who am I to judge somebody else’s servant.” But Christians can be the worst in shooting our own.

Rich admitted, “I was ready for criticism. I just wasn’t expecting so much friendly fire.” If you are doing anything for Christ, expect to get some crossfire.

Where does a critical spirit lead? It will always lead to a doubting heart. It makes your vision smaller. We can choose if we want to a critic or if we want to be creative. But it is hard to truly be both.

 

4.) Character Falls Apart

Rich pointed out, “Charisma gets man’s attention. But it is character that gets God’s attention.” Your character is critical if you want a long, successful life and ministry. Charisma can only carry you so far if you don’t have the character to sustain your life pace. Every minster that falls starts with subtle compromises. We stop reading the Word for ourselves. We stop praying for the Lord to search out our heart and show us any wicked way within us. Character is not optional. It is the one thing we need to be a leader worth following.

Have any of these four stumbling blocks impacted your life or ministry? What is getting in the way of reaching your full potential in Christ? How could unity make the difference in your community? Now more than ever, it is critical in a country so divided.

God has sent you. Nobody else is coming. What are you going to do with God’s call?

Note: This is the first blog post in a series that is going to explore key themes and messages from the 2019 Vous Conference. 

Mistaken Identity

The Biblical story of Adam and Eve has caused controversy through the years. And it recently sparked an Internet faux theological firestorm after a female rabbi used it to depict Eve’s story in Genesis 3:1-16 as the first case of sexual assault.

Tamara Kolton suggested that Eve was the mother of #Metoo movement and that God was the culprit.

While it is a good thing to honor women who have the courage to stand up and speak out against abuse and discrimination, it is not good to misrepresent God and hijack His book for a social agenda. That is particularly true when you paint a picture of God that completely betrays the integrity of the original text.

You can read Kolton’s depiction of the Genesis 3 passage at https://forward.com/scribe/393778/the-first-story-in-the-bible-was-the-first-case-of-metoo/.

Kolton wrote, “It’s time we all acknowledge an overwhelmingly powerful source of shame and silence — in the bible…The story that begins the bible, the first one that we learn in Sunday school, the founding story of man and woman upheld for thousands of years by Judeo-Christian religion, is actually the story of the first sexual assault of a woman. The woman’s name is Eve. And the perpetrator? God.”

Notice that this is not a passive suggestion. Kolton is calling out God in this story claiming He acted in a way that we would classify as criminal today. Before anyone goes and makes such a strong allegation, this person should have significant proof. Shouldn’t that same burden of proof be applied to God?

Kolton commented, “She’s hungry, so she does the most natural thing in the world and eats a piece of fruit. For following her instincts, trusting herself, and nourishing her body, she is punished. Her punishment? She will never again feel safe in her nakedness. She will never again love her body. She will never again know her body as a place of sacred sovereignty.”

Let’s look and see what Scripture actually says. The serpent asked Eve if they were forbidden from eating fruit from all of the trees in the garden. Eve corrected the serpent saying, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden.” God made a beautiful garden, set Adam and Eve in it giving them dominion over the plants and animals. They had freedom to eat from all the trees in the garden except one. That doesn’t make God sound like a villain does it?

Eve further clarified, “God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.'”

By her own words, Eve demonstrated that this is more than just choosing the wrong thing for dinner. Like a loving parent, God had set boundaries designed to protect both Adam and Eve. This was no normal tree. It would give them the ability to know the difference between good and evil, and that could only come about for humans if they experienced and participated in sin.

Eve’s act was not simply eating a piece of fruit. It was rebellion and disobedience despite all the blessings that God had provided. Kolton suggested that there was nothing wrong with Eve “following her instincts and trusting herself.” But in many cases sin may seem like no big deal until we realize that it is. Sin frequently occurs when we trust ourselves and our own morality instead of following God’s commands. Our instincts can get us in trouble when they go against divine instruction.

Kolton further portrayed the scene, “’What have you done?’ He God thunders. Eve wants to defend herself, but she is too ashamed to speak. Eve, our first mother whose name means the ‘mother of all living things,’ is silenced, much the way the ‘patients’ of Dr. Nassar were.”

Wow! A number of scholars have explained this situation as both Adam and Eve being caught with their hands in the cookie jar. They appear to be like two teenagers who get caught doing something they shouldn’t, and they deflect blame. God asks questions much in the same way a parent would when fishing for the truth. The comparison of God with a serial abuser of women is so outrageous that it doesn’t even deserve a response.

And unlike what Kolton wrote, Eve does respond. She claimed to be deceived by the serpent. She was not crouching on the floor in shame, unable to speak. She deflected blame just like Adam.

At first, God addressed the man with a series of questions. The first question is telling because God asked, “Adam, where are you?” Since God knows all things, He wasn’t looking for information. Some scholars believe, and I agree that this is a question asked out of longing. It reveals a break in the relationship caused by their sin. This is the question of a loving Father wanting his lost children to come home. This is not the question of a serial abuser.

Kolton in her essay paints God out to be the bad guy. She makes the reader question and doubt God’s motives. You know who else does the same thing in the Genesis story? The serpent does when it suggested, “You will not surely die…For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God knowing good and evil.” The serpent was insinuating that God was holding out on them. He knows something that they don’t. It is interesting that the pursuit of “knowledge” can be a trap. Some things are best left undiscovered if it leads to sin, pain and death in the process.

Remember, God is desiring to protect here, not control for domination. He has already shared His authority with them. And He made them in His image. The fact that God bestows His image on them means that he values them. You don’t abuse someone that you value.

Just as God is merciful, He is also just. Their sin produced results. The punishment comes as a natural result of their sin, not because God was an ogre who wanted to put them in their place. And ultimately, the story of Adam and Eve leads us to the story of Jesus. He exemplifies the ultimate love of God by choosing to take our punishment. According to the Hebrew Scriptures, Adam and Eve introduced sin into the world. And Christians believe that God redeems it through Christ’s work on our behalf on the cross. This is a love story where God goes to great lengths to show mercy and redeem his wayward children.

Kolton’s further commentary reveals that she wrote her essay informed by a mistaken view of God. She applied to God evil things that were done by wicked men, some who even claimed to speak for God. She lamented, “The founding myth of Judeo-Christian religion, the story of Eve, granted generations of men permission to violate women. It teaches us that women are liars and sinners. Even if ‘She’ is telling the truth, she deserved it. God told her not to eat that apple, or wear that skirt, or go out after dark, or be pretty, or desirous, or in that bar or on that street or in that car or born a girl… This God, this man-made figurehead of the patriarchy, is not my God. He is a fiction, a man-made myth, but yet one so powerful that it’s poisoned and limited our notion of what GOD, the truly divine, is and can be, especially for women.”

Yes, it is true that some men have misused Scripture to justify their own positions and dominate women. But that is not God nor His heart. Truth is that all humans are liars and sinners. Both men and women are in the same boat. Kolton seems to want to raise up the ‘holiness of humanity’ while denying the glory and righteousness of God.

Reading Kolton’s essay my heart broke for her because I believe she doesn’t know the God who created both men and women in His image. I read years of hurt in her words and don’t deny those experiences. I just wonder if her ire is misplaced. Maybe it is humanity that really is the villain here not God?

——————————-

Holy Spirit, may you awaken Tamara Kolton to know the love of God. May she see the great lengths that God will go to reach and save anyone. May she see that following our own instincts when it contradicts your Word does not lead to life. It is a trap. May she see the beauty in the Genesis story not a distorted view of God. You are both just and loving. That is why sin begets punishment. But thank you God that Jesus took our place. Amen!

What Does God Want from Me?

A lot of people talk about doing the will of God. But to do that, we must know what He truly wants. God could have made this easy on us by writing in the sky, sending angels to answer all of our questions or making the Bible more like a manual or Life for Dummies book. But He didn’t do any of those things. Why is this hearing from God thing so tough? Some people talk as if everything is clear. Others honestly admit that they listen for God and all they hear is the sound of crickets. 

If there are so many paths in front of us, why doesn’t God simply remove the distractions? The good Lord could remove all room for doubt. But then would we really ever have faith or free will?

When many people think about the will of God, they automatically gravitate toward what they are supposed to do for God. But honestly, if God is really God, He doesn’t need us to do anything for Him. His plan does include human involvement. But that isn’t out of necessity. It must be for some other reason.

Talking with a high schooler today, I was inspired to write this post. Too often we think of God’s will as a place, action or destination. But what if it is something bigger and yet more basic? What if our thinking about this question is all wrong?

The Bible says we are to take up our cross daily, which seems to suggest that sacrifice is required to do God’s will. But the Old Testament also states that “obedience is better than sacrifice.” The Apostle Paul encouraged believers to become mature in their faith and the fruit of the Spirit. And yet, Jesus said that we could not even enter the Kingdom of God unless we have the faith of a little child. Jesus commanded His disciples to go and make more disciples, which suggests the focus of our mission should be about other people. But Jesus also said that we can do nothing apart from His power and life. So which mission is primary to know and love God or to share the Gospel, make disciples and extend His Kingdom on the earth?

The problem is that we tend to look at this as an either or situation. And in reality, outreach flows from our personal walk with God. As I have pondered this question, I believe the true mission for every Christian is the prayer that David prayed in Psalms 27:4, “One thing I ask of the Lord, this is what I seek: that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life.”

The primary mission of a Christian is to know and love God. It all starts with our personal relationship with Jesus. He is the living water as Scripture explains. Just as we need water to sustain life, we must have a relationship with God to live in the way as the Creator intended. This involves a wide variety of experiences and actions, such as reading and following sacred Scripture, prayer, obedience to the Word of God, thanksgiving, recognition of God’s power and presence in daily life, sacraments, spiritual gifts and miracles, confessions of faith, sharing the Gospel, etc.

And in order to have living water that remains alive and pure, it must have an outlet. Otherwise, we become like a stagnant pool where disease and bacteria can grow. That is why part of the Christian mission is to share the love and truth that God has deposited into our lives.

The Lord has given us a picture of this reality in the Dead Sea, which has no outlet. It is one of the saltiest bodies of water on the planet because it is located at such a low point. Everything flows downhill and mineral deposits collect killing aquatic life. If you simply receive from God and do not give it away, you will become full and not be able to receive any more. And what had previously been living water can become stagnant, less useful and a breading pool for disease. This picture demonstrates the dual nature of God’s ultimate purpose for humanity. It can be seen in the words of Jesus. He summed up the law and the prophet by saying, “He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself’” (Luke 10:27).

How you go about doing that is what makes you unique. The key is realizing that God’s will for your life is more about the journey you take with God and the person you become along the way than what you do for God or which path you choose to take.

The Holy Spirit Inspired the Dream

If you have ever heard Dr. Martin Luther King’s “I Have a Dream” speech it is impossible not to be stirred and feel that you are listening to something epic. It is as if that speech was not mere words. It was a spiritual experience that broke a yoke off the necks of millions of people.

I always thought that when I heard it I was reminded of some of the most moving sermons I had listened to in my life. King was a preacher before he was a civil rights icon. And he knew what it meant to be inspired by God to action. And when I heard a recent TV show exploring the story behind King’s famous speech, I knew that I was right. Those were not mere words.

On This Week with George Stephanopoulos, Congressman and civil rights leader, John Lewis, spoke about that day. ABC News journalist Byron Pitts spoke with Lewis and former U.S. Ambassador Andrew Young, one of King’s top aids, about King’s speech. This transcript is incredible.
———————————————————-
Andrew YOUNG: He was determined not to speak more than 10 minutes. And he did. He finished his prepared address in just about 9 minutes.

PITTS: But he wasn’t finished. Sitting behind Dr. King was famed gospel singer Mahalia Jackson who shouted to her friend, tell them about the dream. It’s a theme he’d used before in smaller settings.

KING: I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.

PITTS: Why do you think he made that transition to talk about the dream?

YOUNG: As a preacher, there’s something we, we call being led by the spirit.

LEWIS: The spirit told him to lay that paper down and just go for it.

KING: I have a dream. My four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I have a dream today.

PITTS: And it’s a dream that still lives on 50 years later.

(See more on this news discussion at
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/08/rep-john-lewis-remembers-historic-march-on-washington)

——————————————————–
This transcript clearly shows that the Holy Spirit inspired one of the most incredible political moments of the last 100 years. When people ask, “Where is God with all this injustice in the world?” I can point to moments like King’s speech and know that God’s Spirit stirs mens’ souls. The Holy Spirit moves behind the scenes, and one day, we will realize that the Lord was in those moments after all.

I am not surprised that the Holy Spirit breathed life into words that King had said at other times without the same effect. It was the power of the Spirit that made those words electric. He is moving in history. We just have to see it and know that the Spirit brings the fire that changes history.

I don’t say this in any way to disrespect King’s impact or his personal sacrifice to gain what he fought for. While those were his words, the concept he fought for is deeply rooted in the vision that the Apostle Paul outlined in the New Testament. Primarily, I am pointing out that King was divinely inspired, which should give more credence to his dream.

Praise be to God that we have come so far because Scripture says, “Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom.” May we continue to bring God’s principles of love, hope and mercy to those who are not free or struggle due to injustice. While our job is not done, history shows that we have come a far way in establishing liberty and freedom in many places in the world.

LA Infusion 2013 Top Ten

(Ok, it was just too good for only 10, so top 15)

1.) Getting to know my small group. Seven incredible young men of God who are ready to rock the world for Jesus!

2.) Honest conversations with the Infusion staff about life and God, especially Matt Perez, Daniel Chae, Hannah Prothero, John Ribeiro, Johnny Gillespie, Nick Mason, Chip Messick and others.   

3.) Showing the love of Jesus to people on the streets of Hollywood. Meeting Logan and Jon on the street and praying with them. Logan and I are still in conversation via text message.

4.) Let’s Go Down to the Water – inspiring song by Jake Mason about the complete forgiveness of God for ALL of my sin.

5.) Feast at Bronnie Lee’s house with Infusion staff. The Lee family rocks!

6.) Hearing from God as He opened up 1 John 2:3-6 to me following the first teaching by Joy Dawson. Knowing Jesus changes everything. See my blog post.

7.) Watching  Jake and Katherine lead the Infusion team.

8.) Seeing at least more than 80 young people realize that God loves them and does speak to them. That’s priceless.  

9.) Brian Brennt’s Love Revolution teaching on Wednesday in Hollywood. We are family!

10.) Talking with Infusioners about their future and identity in Christ.

11.) Powerful prayer encounters with various Infusion students and staff.

12.) Working in the kitchen with Teresa Kwon, Nicole Kwon, Matt Perez and John Romaine.

13.) Korean style prayer with the student leaders from GMI. These young people know how to pray with passion and love.

14.) Playing RAVE! Ball and getting three outs in the T-ball game during game night.

15.) Conversation with Johnny Gillespie about modeling Jesus’ radical love in marriage.